Journal of chinese Medicine. Number 90. June 2009 Chinese Medicine in the West 2009 VS: That happened in China, too. The only reason Chinese and that' s key to me. And although nowadays I dont medicine became Chinese medicine-in a certainse think that's always why students are doing Chinese is because of this threat of extinction before the medicine, that passion still emerges. You really see it early 20th century there was no"Chinese medicine. in their understanding of the whole diagnostic and Only lots of factions practising"medicine", all at each pathological process. And the acupuncture is one part others throats. It was only when they were faced with of that; it's the qi of acupuncture that's so important the real threat of extinction in 1929 that they started So I think that is still alive and well, and that' s what to organise politically as one group. So those things keeps me going in terms of education and in terms have nothing to do with Chinese medicine, they are what I want to teach which is a true alternative just professional po PD: Well I have to say I'm not convinced that that is still PD: Anyway, my apologies for the lack of a Chinese alive, because i teach in a lot of different countries presence.I'd like to start us off by thinking about and I'm really surprised how Chinese medicine how we would like to see this profession-that we education seems to be increasingly divorced from might call Chinese medicine, or Oriental medicine those roots and several essential steps seem to be unfold. how we think it's going to unfold, or how missing. I remember teaching in America, analysing we fear it's going to unfold in the future. To start off cases, and doing what is very natural to me-its how I would say that the use of an acupuncture needle I was taught -trying to relate what is happening to to stick in an acupuncture point is not a rootless the patient to the causes of disease. I always felt that thing. For me it has deep roots in what I understand if somebody is sick, what we must do, as well as offer of Chinese medicine- I've not studied Japanese, treatment, is look back and try to understand how Vietnamese, Korean acupuncture- and even more this has come about. It's logical that if how it has come in what I understand of Chinese philosophy, which about is a present factor in their lives they may not I feel is the ultimate root of this practice. What we get better until they change it. But I heard Ame have, more with acupuncture than herbal medicine, students tell me that this is not something that is a lot of people practising, learning and researching were taught, and that their approach to the patient acupuncture in a way that does not connect with those starts with differentiation of patterns and leads on to roots. So one question is how important do we feel treatment, and anything else is background that they those roots are, and is that how we would like to see were not taught. I've seen this in other places,and this medicine develop, deeply rooted, or re-rooted, this to me is part of the Westernisation of Chinese are we happy for it to go in another direction -do we think it will go in another direction, or are we afraid that it will go in another direction. DM: In the last discussion 23 years ago, Ted Kaptchuk was saying that at some point Western acupuncture VS: I think the crucial issue here has to do with the names would make a"declaration of independence China, and Chinese. A lot of people in the medical But what I've observed recently -at least an world would say that acupuncture has nothing to traditional practitioners-is that it seems to be do with China, it's just sticking needles, and most of the opposite. Apart from research and more modern the current research doesn't say" Chinese medicin inventions like electroacupuncture, there seems to be it says"acupuncture". So I'm interested in whether more of a cleaving to the older texts and especially there is really anything Chinese about Chinese lineages. There is much more interest in finding medicine? Is it acupuncture when you just stick lineages from China rather than just broad spectrum needles? What's the difference between doing it in " TCM"or"Chinese medicine". So it is not becoming a Chinese way, or a medical acupuncture way, or a more independent; it is becoming more Chinese Japanese way? VS: I think all these things are happening at the same FM: Your question brings me right back to why I wanted time. I would suggest that the Westernising process to study Chinese medicine -as a true alternative. To is actually something in which China is involved, me having one system of medicine in a country, a too. It comes from the West going to China, then monoculture, is an absolute danger. That was always the Chinese taking it up and repackaging their my concern, and therefore I went into Chinese own medicine in a way that they think appeals to medicine And to me that's what Chinese medicine is us but also that they think is systematic, and they all about, it offers society a true alternative, another ship it over here and we call it Westernisation. But ray ofunderstanding how the body works, a different another way of looking at it is actually as a Chinese narrative for patients, a different process altogether, interpretation of the West sold back to us. So I thinkJournal of Chinese Medicine • Number 90 • June 2009 Chinese Medicine in the West 2009 7 VS: That happened in China, too. The only reason Chinese medicine became Chinese medicine ‑ in a certain sense ‑ is because of this threat of extinction. Before the early 20th century there was no “Chinese medicine.” Only lots of factions practising “medicine”, all at each others’ throats. It was only when they were faced with the real threat of extinction in 1929 that they started to organise politically as one group. So those things have nothing to do with Chinese medicine, they are just professional politics. PD: Anyway, my apologies for the lack of a Chinese presence ... I’d like to start us off by thinking about how we would like to see this profession ‑ that we might call Chinese medicine, or Oriental medicine ‑ unfold ... how we think it’s going to unfold, or how we fear it’s going to unfold in the future. To start off I would say that the use of an acupuncture needle to stick in an acupuncture point is not a rootless thing. For me it has deep roots in what I understand of Chinese medicine ‑ I’ve not studied Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean acupuncture – and even more in what I understand of Chinese philosophy, which I feel is the ultimate root of this practice. What we have, more with acupuncture than herbal medicine, is a lot of people practising, learning and researching acupuncture in a way that does not connect with those roots. So one question is how important do we feel those roots are, and is that how we would like to see this medicine develop, deeply rooted, or re‑rooted, or are we happy for it to go in another direction – do we think it will go in another direction, or are we afraid that it will go in another direction. VS: I think the crucial issue here has to do with the names China, and Chinese. A lot of people in the medical world would say that acupuncture has nothing to do with China, it’s just sticking needles, and most of the current research doesn’t say “Chinese medicine” it says “acupuncture”. So I’m interested in whether there is really anything Chinese about Chinese medicine? Is it acupuncture when you just stick needles? What’s the difference between doing it in a Chinese way, or a medical acupuncture way, or a Japanese way? FM: Your question brings me right back to why I wanted to study Chinese medicine ‑ as a true alternative. To me having one system of medicine in a country, a monoculture, is an absolute danger. That was always my concern, and therefore I went into Chinese medicine. And to me that’s what Chinese medicine is all about, it offers society a true alternative, another way of understanding how the body works, a different narrative for patients, a different process altogether, and that’s key to me. And although nowadays I don’t think that’s always why students are doing Chinese medicine, that passion still emerges. You really see it in their understanding of the whole diagnostic and pathological process. And the acupuncture is one part of that; it’s the qi of acupuncture that’s so important. So I think that is still alive and well, and that’s what keeps me going in terms of education and in terms of what I want to teach, which is a true alternative. PD: Well I have to say I’m not convinced that that is still alive, because I teach in a lot of different countries, and I’m really surprised how Chinese medicine education seems to be increasingly divorced from those roots and several essential steps seem to be missing. I remember teaching in America, analysing cases, and doing what is very natural to me – it’s how I was taught – trying to relate what is happening to the patient to the causes of disease. I always felt that if somebody is sick, what we must do, as well as offer treatment, is look back and try to understand how this has come about. It’s logical that if how it has come about is a present factor in their lives they may not get better until they change it. But I heard American students tell me that this is not something that they were taught, and that their approach to the patient starts with differentiation of patterns and leads on to treatment, and anything else is background that they were not taught. I’ve seen this in other places, and this to me is part of the Westernisation of Chinese medicine. DM: In the last discussion 23 years ago, Ted Kaptchuk was saying that at some point Western acupuncture would make a “declaration of independence”. But what I’ve observed recently ‑ at least among traditional practitioners ‑ is that it seems to be quite the opposite. Apart from research and more modern inventions like electroacupuncture, there seems to be more of a cleaving to the older texts and especially lineages. There is much more interest in finding lineages from China rather than just broad spectrum “TCM” or “Chinese medicine”. So it is not becoming more independent; it is becoming more Chinese. VS: I think all these things are happening at the same time. I would suggest that the Westernising process is actually something in which China is involved, too. It comes from the West going to China, then the Chinese taking it up and repackaging their own medicine in a way that they think appeals to us but also that they think is systematic, and they ship it over here and we call it Westernisation. But another way of looking at it is actually as a Chinese interpretation of the West sold back to us. So I think