Journal of chinese Medicine. Number 90. June 2009 Chinese Medicine in the West 2009 VS: But then what you are actually finding out is doctor someone you go to when you have a problem something much more generic; what it is that makes and you want the problem fixed, like a technician. a good healer or a good practitioner. Maybe being Or is a doctor somebody you go to for medicine but a good Chinese medicine doctor helps you become also in the hope that you might receive information, a good healer, but then maybe dealing with lots knowledge, advice, even wisdom and inspiration. of antibiotics might also make you a very good Does a doctor model, for example, a more integrated doctor, or maybe interaction with people. One way and healthy approach to life? And this is something of answering the question that we raised before that I feel idealistic about -that on a level of individual simply to look at Chinese medicine through history, sickness the doctor practising within the tradition and then kind of strip away all of the contextual we are concerned with, does have knowledge and factors, such as what is typical about Sung dynasty wisdom that relates to leading a healthy life. And Chinese medicine in southern China, what is typical looking at the bigger picture, on a society level we about Ming dynasty medicine in another place, what know we are beset by health problems, we have is typical about acupuncturists in England, so if you a vast rise in obesity and diabetes, and all kinds of had enough data and looked at it in a very de chronic diseases. I believe Chinese medicine in the fashion then maybe you could find out there are wider sense has knowledge about how to live that certain things about Chinese medicine- when it can help with these problems And broader still,in works-and they are always there. a world where we are ultimately in danger of great suffering or extinction because our relationship with PD: I'd like to revisit something you said because I thought the natural world has gone so badly wrong, I believe it was important to pin it down. One thing that we all there are teachings within these traditions that offer discovered when we studied Chinese medicine is how solutions on a planetary level. Daoism and Buddhism flexibleitis, how flexible the thinking is, and that can be particularly, which have been strong influences disturbing. A piece of theory or an idea will be brought on Chinese medicine, teach and model restraint in up to explain something that is happening, and that desire for material consumption and harmony with piece of theory may be contradictory to another piece the natural world of theory which is not called upon at that moment And so it seems to me that you're suggesting that Vs: But I think that you also have to see the shortcomings e of the special qualities of Chinese medicine is this One of the biggest sho relationship, between what we might call systematic is that it is individualistic. It is focused on the knowledge and spontaneity of practice. individual and not on the group, not on society, at least not how it has developed. It was because of VS: That would be one special quality; its like yin and social medicine that Western medicine won out in China itself. Because a Western-trained doctor named Wu Liande knew how to impose quarantine PD: Yes, they re integrated. The spontaneity of practice during a plague epidemic in Manchuria in 1910, not separate from-it has to be rooted in, some form and because this proved to be more effective than of systematic knowledge. actually treating plague patients with Chinese medicine. Western medicine became the Chinese VS: Also, one of the things we really don t know enoug states preferred medical system. And that's what is about yet historically, is what was the daily life like, really lacking in Chinese medicine. It is very good at how did these famous doctors practise, apart from treating individuals, but it simply hasn't got a very writing out a formula. Maybe they meditated-some developed social understanding of disease of them were Buddhist monks; or maybe they wrote nsive that integrating the Heart-Mind means you become VS: I think you need to differentiate between Chinese clearer, more precise, focused, in your actions in medicine and our own aspirations. Maybe Chinese medicine, and as a result, in all your actions, your medicine can help us, but I don' t see the green agenda daily life. This is an intellectual tradition, but also a as being very Chinese medicine at present. At least medical tradition from a historical perspective I can't see that Maybe now you want to develop it, and maybe it gives you PD: When I teach health preservation, I start off and I ask the tools to think about it what is a doctor, what role does he or she have? Is aJournal of Chinese Medicine • Number 90 • June 2009 Chinese Medicine in the West 2009 11 VS: But then what you are actually finding out is something much more generic; what it is that makes a good healer or a good practitioner. Maybe being a good Chinese medicine doctor helps you become a good healer, but then maybe dealing with lots of antibiotics might also make you a very good doctor, or maybe interaction with people. One way of answering the question that we raised before is simply to look at Chinese medicine through history, and then kind of strip away all of the contextual factors, such as what is typical about Sung dynasty Chinese medicine in southern China, what is typical about Ming dynasty medicine in another place, what is typical about acupuncturists in England, so if you had enough data and looked at it in a very detailed fashion then maybe you could find out there are certain things about Chinese medicine ‑ when it works – and they are always there. PD: I’d like to revisit something you said because I thought it was important to pin it down. One thing that we all discovered when we studied Chinese medicine is how flexible it is, how flexible the thinking is, and that can be disturbing. A piece of theory or an idea will be brought up to explain something that is happening, and that piece of theory may be contradictory to another piece of theory which is not called upon at that moment. And so it seems to me that you’re suggesting that one of the special qualities of Chinese medicine is this relationship, between what we might call systematic knowledge and spontaneity of practice. VS: That would be one special quality; its like yin and yang isn’t it. PD: Yes, they’re integrated. The spontaneity of practice is not separate from – it has to be rooted in, some form of systematic knowledge. VS: Also, one of the things we really don’t know enough about yet historically, is what was the daily life like, how did these famous doctors practise, apart from writing out a formula. Maybe they meditated ‑ some of them were Buddhist monks; or maybe they wrote extensive self‑reflecting diaries – some Confucianists when they go to bed, every night, reflect on what they could have done better today. There is the idea that integrating the Heart‑Mind means you become clearer, more precise, focused, in your actions in medicine, and as a result, in all your actions, your daily life. This is an intellectual tradition, but also a medical tradition. PD: When I teach health preservation, I start off and I ask what is a doctor, what role does he or she have? Is a doctor someone you go to when you have a problem and you want the problem fixed, like a technician. Or is a doctor somebody you go to for medicine but also in the hope that you might receive information, knowledge, advice, even wisdom and inspiration. Does a doctor model, for example, a more integrated and healthy approach to life? And this is something that I feel idealistic about ‑ that on a level of individual sickness the doctor practising within the tradition we are concerned with, does have knowledge and wisdom that relates to leading a healthy life. And looking at the bigger picture, on a society level we know we are beset by health problems, we have a vast rise in obesity and diabetes, and all kinds of chronic diseases. I believe Chinese medicine in the wider sense has knowledge about how to live that can help with these problems. And broader still, in a world where we are ultimately in danger of great suffering or extinction because our relationship with the natural world has gone so badly wrong, I believe there are teachings within these traditions that offer solutions on a planetary level. Daoism and Buddhism particularly, which have been strong influences on Chinese medicine, teach and model restraint in desire for material consumption and harmony with the natural world. VS: But I think that you also have to see the shortcomings. One of the biggest shortcomings of Chinese medicine is that it is individualistic. It is focused on the individual and not on the group, not on society, at least not how it has developed. It was because of social medicine that Western medicine won out in China itself. Because a Western‑trained doctor named Wu Liande knew how to impose quarantine during a plague epidemic in Manchuria in 1910, and because this proved to be more effective than actually treating plague patients with Chinese medicine, Western medicine became the Chinese state’s preferred medical system. And that’s what is really lacking in Chinese medicine. It is very good at treating individuals, but it simply hasn’t got a very developed social understanding of disease. FM: That’s why I think Chinese medicine and biomedicine can integrate so well. VS: I think you need to differentiate between Chinese medicine and our own aspirations. Maybe Chinese medicine can help us, but I don’t see the green agenda as being very Chinese medicine at present. At least from a historical perspective I can’t see that. Maybe now you want to develop it, and maybe it gives you the tools to think about it