Chinese Medicine in the West 2009 Journal of Chinese Medicine. Number 90. June 2009 PD: Well I've been reading Joseph Needham recently, in a world that is de and I'm very interested in his observation that the solutions for how to live. i see within what i know of reason the Chinese developed so much science and Chinese traditions and Chinese philosophy, as good technology, centuries earlier than the West-and answers as I see anywhere else-a philosophy-based within that we can include chinese medicine- is alternative to unbridled consumerism and that the Taoists were observers of nature- without fundamentalist belief preconceptions. There was this simple observation of the natural world unmediated by restricting theories DM: Although to a certain degree, that intelligence about or beliefs, in the way that Christianity obstructed the the world, and balance and nature, and all of that, is development of science in the West. It was a kind of a quality of other traditional pre-industrial societies accelerated learning through accurate and flexible You know if you look at native American tradition, or bservation Celtic paganism, they all seem to share that kind of FM: But don't you think that Confucianism put a stop to that for quite a period of time? VS: But then you have environments like the Easter Islands that were destroyed by traditional societies VS: I think that's too simplistic. this whole thing that What I like about Chinese medicine, is it goes against Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism are three totally essentialism. You always have to come back to what separate things. They always integrate. Theres a is specific in this moment, in this specific context, famous saying in China,"People are a Confucian here and now... you cannot uphold just one principle in office and Daoist out of office, "and when they sometimes you use more yin-yang, sometimes you prepare for death they may become Buddhist too. use more five phases-so you have to be flexible. That You know you can flip between these traditions very to me connects to where we come from. I conscious flexibly, and they share a common cultural frame of try to always make connections to my being in the reference, like almost everything we do in the west is West, and my being in the West very much comes connected to Platonism in some way, so it's the same from the 60,s, 70s, the counter-culture movement for them that's where we come from and I think the most important thing about that time was going against HM: I think one of the dangers though, with this idealising essentialism of Chinese medicine, is that it's a fantasy. I worry about looking back into the past and having these HM: I talk to the scientists in my department and they'll idealised images of Chinese doctors who meditated be saying exactly the same things about flexibility and did their calligraphy -setting them up on a open-mindedness, willingness to be flexible and pedestal as if this is the real Chinese medicine or seeing the bigger picture the real doctors, as though somehow we should emulate them, or we would do good medicine if we VS: Totally, but I would also agree that there is somet did those sorts of things. Or importing the grand about Chinese thinking that allows you to see story of Chinese medicine, about being at one with connections that exist, patterns in the world. I'm not nature, and how that can inform the green agenda. saying it's the only way that you can discover them My experience, especially working in the university, because mathematicians might also be very good at is that the acupuncture world is a very small world discovering patterns. But I think Chinese medicine, in the UK. I feel marginal in the university and as a Chinese thinking, trains you in discovering patterns, community we are marginal. And lots of the ideas that discovering connections that are responsible for we discuss in Chinese medicine are also discussed in causing certain effects my department, about clinical judgement, clinical easoning, about how to be a good doctor and FM: One of the things I find in the clinic, the turning point so forth. The sorts of things that we attach to our for students, is when they start to understand how ised Chinese doctor, are actually issues that to be flexible. When they study, they get fixated on le wrestle with in the West as well. So I think zangfu differentiation primarily, and everything that it's a much more complicated picture. We shouldnt we do to try to shift them away from that doesnt overly romanticise it so that we end seem to work, so its only once theyre in the clinic fantasy land. that we can say now just look at the person what is the best way that you can understand what PD: I'm not idealising the Chinese doctor or Chinese is going on . don't try putting them into a box medicine. I'm only saying that from my perception, it channel theory that will help you, qi, blood, body12 Chinese Medicine in the West 2009 Journal of Chinese Medicine • Number 90 • June 2009 PD: Well I’ve been reading Joseph Needham recently, and I’m very interested in his observation that the reason the Chinese developed so much science and technology, centuries earlier than the West ‑ and within that we can include Chinese medicine ‑ is that the Taoists were observers of nature ‑ without preconceptions. There was this simple observation of the natural world unmediated by restricting theories or beliefs, in the way that Christianity obstructed the development of science in the West. It was a kind of accelerated learning through accurate and flexible observation. FM: But don’t you think that Confucianism put a stop to that for quite a period of time? VS: I think that’s too simplistic… this whole thing that Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism are three totally separate things. They always integrate. There’s a famous saying in China, “People are a Confucian in office and Daoist out of office,” and when they prepare for death they may become Buddhist too. You know you can flip between these traditions very flexibly, and they share a common cultural frame of reference, like almost everything we do in the West is connected to Platonism in some way, so it’s the same for them. HM: I think one of the dangers though, with this idealising of Chinese medicine, is that it’s a fantasy. I worry about looking back into the past and having these idealised images of Chinese doctors who meditated and did their calligraphy ‑ setting them up on a pedestal as if this is the real Chinese medicine or the real doctors, as though somehow we should emulate them, or we would do good medicine if we did those sorts of things. Or importing the grand story of Chinese medicine, about being at one with nature, and how that can inform the green agenda. My experience, especially working in the university, is that the acupuncture world is a very small world in the UK. I feel marginal in the university and as a community we are marginal. And lots of the ideas that we discuss in Chinese medicine are also discussed in my department, about clinical judgement, clinical reasoning, about how to be a good doctor and so forth. The sorts of things that we attach to our idealised Chinese doctor, are actually issues that people wrestle with in the West as well. So I think it’s a much more complicated picture. We shouldn’t overly romaticise it so that we end up living in a fantasy land. PD: I’m not idealising the Chinese doctor or Chinese medicine. I’m only saying that from my perception, in a world that is desperately looking for meaningful solutions for how to live, I see within what I know of Chinese traditions and Chinese philosophy, as good answers as I see anywhere else ‑ a philosophy‑based alternative to unbridled consumerism and fundamentalist belief. DM: Although to a certain degree, that intelligence about the world, and balance and nature, and all of that, is a quality of other traditional pre‑industrial societies. You know if you look at native American tradition, or Celtic paganism, they all seem to share that kind of knowledge about living. VS: But then you have environments like the Easter Islands that were destroyed by traditional societies. What I like about Chinese medicine, is it goes against essentialism. You always have to come back to what is specific in this moment, in this specific context, here and now… you cannot uphold just one principle – sometimes you use more yin‑yang, sometimes you use more five phases – so you have to be flexible. That to me connects to where we come from. I consciously try to always make connections to my being in the West, and my being in the West very much comes from the 60’s, 70’s, the counter‑culture movement ... that’s where we come from, and I think the most important thing about that time was going against essentialism. HM: I talk to the scientists in my department and they’ll be saying exactly the same things about flexibility and open‑mindedness, willingness to be flexible and seeing the bigger picture. VS: Totally, but I would also agree that there is something about Chinese thinking that allows you to see the connections that exist, patterns in the world. I’m not saying it’s the only way that you can discover them, because mathematicians might also be very good at discovering patterns. But I think Chinese medicine, Chinese thinking, trains you in discovering patterns, discovering connections that are responsible for causing certain effects. FM: One of the things I find in the clinic, the turning point for students, is when they start to understand how to be flexible. When they study, they get fixated on zangfu differentiation primarily, and everything that we do to try to shift them away from that doesn’t seem to work, so its only once they’re in the clinic that we can say ... now just look at the person ... what is the best way that you can understand what is going on ... don’t try putting them into a box – is it channel theory that will help you, qi, blood, body